Are You With Me,
or Against God?

What is this page about?

A person in a church asks a question. Maybe it is about money. Maybe it is about a decision. Maybe it is about something the preacher said. The person asks in private and politely.

The answer is not about the question. The answer is something like this:

• “You have a rebellious spirit.”
• “Korah asked questions too, and the ground opened under him.”
• “The pastor is God’s anointed. It is dangerous to touch him.”
• “Ananias and Sapphira fell down dead because of money.”
• “People who leave this church lose their protection.”

Nobody said, “I will hurt you.” The leader only read from the Bible. The listener understands the rest. That is why it is so hard to answer.

Five Bible passages, read to the end

1. “Do not touch the Lord’s anointed”

Don’t touch my anointed ones! Do my prophets no harm!

Psalm 105:15 · World English Bible

Who are the “anointed ones”? Read the lines before it. They speak of the family of Abraham, before Israel was a nation.

when they were but a few men in number, yes, very few, and foreigners in it… He allowed no one to do them wrong. Yes, he reproved kings for their sakes

Psalm 105:12–14 · World English Bible

In simple words: They were only a few people, and they were strangers in the land. God did not let anyone hurt them. He even corrected kings to protect them.

So the “anointed ones” are a small family with no power. They are not kings, priests or pastors. And the people who get the warning are kings.

This is a rule that protects weak people from strong people. Today it is used to protect strong people from weak people. The sentence is the same, but it points the other way.

People also think of David and King Saul (1 Samuel 24 and 26). David would not kill Saul, because Saul was the Lord’s anointed. But read on. A few verses later David stands on a hill. He shouts to the king, in front of both armies, what the king has done wrong. He ends: “May Yahweh judge between me and you” (1 Samuel 24:12).

So “do not touch” cannot mean “do not criticise”. David said the first and did the second, and the Bible does not blame him.

2. Korah

Korah was not a simple member with a complaint. He was already a leader who served at God’s holy tent. He wanted more: he wanted to be a priest too. Moses says to him: “Do you seek the priesthood also?” (Numbers 16:10)

Now look at what Moses does.

• He falls on his face (Numbers 16:4).
• He asks God to decide. He does not decide himself.
• He says only this for himself: “I have not taken one donkey from them, neither have I hurt one of them.” (Numbers 16:15)
• He prays two times that God will not destroy the people who accused him.

In this chapter the leader never protects his own position. So a leader who uses Korah to protect his position has not read the chapter well.

3. Miriam

This story partly supports the leaders, and this page says so. In Numbers 12, God does defend Moses.

But who is criticising Moses? His own sister and brother. She is a prophet and he is the high priest. They say: “Has Yahweh indeed spoken only with Moses? Hasn’t he spoken also with us?” (Numbers 12:2) So this is a fight between the top leaders. It is not about a member with a question.

And when Miriam becomes sick, Moses does one thing. He prays for her: “Heal her, God, I beg you!” (Numbers 12:13)

4. Ananias and Sapphira

This is the story about money. A man and his wife sold some land. They gave part of the money to the church. But they said that it was all of the money. Both of them died.

Almost nobody reads the sentence in the middle of the story. Peter says to Ananias:

While you kept it, didn’t it remain your own? After it was sold, wasn’t it in your power?… You haven’t lied to men, but to God.

Acts 5:4 · World English Bible

In simple words: The land was yours. After you sold it, the money was yours too. You could do what you wanted with it. You have not lied to people. You have lied to God.

So nobody had to give anything. They could keep the land. They could keep all the money.

Their sin was pretending. They wanted to look more generous than they were. And Peter says the lie was against God, not against him. He takes himself out of it.

It is true that they die. The story wants the reader to be afraid. But it wants us to fear God, and it is about lying. The person who uses the story for one church’s money has added that himself.

5. “The spirit of Absalom”

Absalom was King David’s son. For four years he sat at the city gate. He told every unhappy person, “You are right, but the king will not listen.” In this way “Absalom stole the hearts of the men of Israel” (2 Samuel 15:6). Then he made himself king, collected an army, and drove his father out of the city.

Rebellion is real in the Bible. This story is about it. But a person with one question is not Absalom. Absalom did not bring a worry to the leader. He collected other people’s complaints to build a group of followers for himself.

And look at David. He leaves the city. He does not fight for it. He tells his soldiers not to hurt Absalom. He cries when Absalom dies.

The passage nobody reads: Diotrephes

The New Testament names only one person as an example of bad behaviour in a local church. The passage is very short, and preachers almost never use it.

I wrote to the assembly, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, doesn’t accept what we say. Therefore if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words. Not content with this, neither does he himself receive the brothers, and those who would, he forbids and throws out of the assembly.

3 John 9–10 · World English Bible

In simple words: I wrote to the church. But Diotrephes loves to be first, and he does not accept what we say. He says bad and untrue things about us. He does not welcome the Christian brothers who visit. He stops other people who want to welcome them, and he throws those people out of the church. (“Assembly” here means “church”.)

There are four complaints. For each one, ask: who is able to do this?

1. He loves to be first. Only a person at the top can love the first place.
2. He does not accept the apostle’s letter. Only a leader can refuse it.
3. He says bad things about his critics. He needs people who listen to him.
4. He throws people out of the church. A normal member cannot do this. Only a leader can.

Here is the surprising part. John does not say that Diotrephes teaches false things. He does not say that Diotrephes steals or lives badly. The only complaint is about how he leads the church. He loves the top place. He refuses correction. He attacks his critics and puts them out.

When was Jesus angry?

Look through the four Gospels. Make two lists. In the first list, Jesus is angry or speaks very hard words. In the second list, a person fails badly and Jesus forgives.

Jesus was angry with these people:

• The sellers in the temple, and the leaders who let them sell there.
• The religious leaders who watched to see if he would heal on the day of rest. Here the Bible says he looked at them “with anger” (Mark 3:5).
• The teachers of the law. He said: “you load men with burdens that are difficult to carry” (Luke 11:46).
• Peter, right after Jesus had made him a leader (Matthew 16:23).

Jesus showed mercy to these people:

• A woman who had been unfaithful to her husband.
• Zacchaeus, who had taken too much money from people.
• Peter, after he said three times that he did not know Jesus.
• A woman from Samaria who had had five husbands.
• Thomas, who wanted proof.
• A rich young man who walked away. The Bible says: “Jesus looking at him loved him” (Mark 10:21).
• The criminal who died next to him.

What makes the difference? It is not the size of the sin. The people who did great wrongs were forgiven. The religious leaders who put heavy loads on other people heard the hard words. The difference is this: does the person have power over others, and does he use it against them?

And what did Jesus want? He did not ask for better teachers at the top. He asked for no top at all:

don’t you be called ‘Rabbi,’ for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers… he who is greatest among you will be your servant

Matthew 23:8–11 · World English Bible

In simple words: Do not let people call you “Teacher”. You have one teacher, the Christ, and you are all brothers. The greatest among you must be your servant.

Is it a warning, or is it pressure?

A minister must warn people. That is his job. A minister who never says anything uncomfortable is not doing his work. So how can we know an honest warning from the wrong kind of pressure? Four questions help.

1. Who is hurt by the wrong? Is the wrong against God, or against another person? Then this is the work of a pastor. Is the wrong against the speaker himself? “You are not loyal to me.” “You are hurting my ministry.” Then the subject has changed.
2. Is the wrong named? “If you take that job, you will have to lie every week.” This is clear. You can look at it, and it can be true or false. “You have a critical spirit.” This names nothing. You cannot answer it.
3. Does it still work with another name? Put in the name of another minister. “God judges people who lie” is still true. “God judges people who question me” is not.
4. Is there a fair process? Could the leader be wrong? Real church discipline has steps and witnesses (Matthew 18:15-17 and 1 Timothy 5:19). Ask: what would make the leader agree that the worry was right? If there is no answer, there is no fair process.

Here are four examples. The page made them up.

This is a real warning. The wrong is named. The person who is hurt is the drinker and his family, not the pastor.

No wrong is named. The only “sin” is leaving the speaker.

The question gets no answer. The person’s character is attacked, and nobody can answer that.

This leader accepts that he may be wrong, and there is a process.

What the church has always said

The old Christian teachers are very direct about this. These men led large churches.

the wrong-doer must be made better, not by force, but by persuasion

John Chrysostom, church leader in Constantinople, about the year 390

In simple words: A person who does wrong must be made better with good words and reasons. Force must not be used.

rejoice not to be over men, but to do them good

Gregory the Great, church leader in Rome, year 590

In simple words: Do not be glad that you are above other people. Be glad to do good to them.

For you I am a bishop, with you, after all, I am a Christian.

Augustine, about the year 400

In simple words: For you, I am a church leader. With you, I am a Christian. (He added that the first name means danger, and the second name means being saved.)

God alone is Lord of the conscience.

The Westminster Confession, 1646

In simple words: Only God rules over what a person believes in his heart to be right.

Two old Protestant statements, from 1571 and 1646, also say that great church meetings “may err”. That means they can make mistakes. If a meeting of the whole church can be wrong, one minister can be wrong too.

The best arguments against this page

1. The Bible does tell us to obey church leaders. “Obey your leaders and submit to them.” (Hebrews 13:17) Other verses say to respect them highly. This is clear. Church leaders have real authority. But the New Testament does not give any leader, even an apostle, freedom from being checked.
2. The judgements in these stories are real. People die in Acts 5. The ground closes over Korah. This page should not make the stories softer than they are.
3. Church members also destroy good ministers. Some people collect complaints and drive out a good pastor. That is why the Bible says: “Don’t receive an accusation against an elder, except at the word of two or three witnesses.” (1 Timothy 5:19) This rule is a real protection.
4. This page chose passages that fit its idea. That is partly true. These are the passages that leaders use most. But see also James 3:1: teachers will be judged more strictly.
5. A page like this can help the wrong people. Some readers are not victims. They have left four churches and are never happy. For them, question 3 above is the test. If a warning is still true with another name in it, it is a good warning. Most pastoral warnings pass this test easily.

What should change?

1. Say who is hurt. “This is a sin against God and against your wife” is one thing. “This is not loyal to me” is a different thing.
2. Tell the whole story. If Korah is in the sermon, Moses on his face must be in it too. If Acts 5 is in the sermon, “didn’t it remain your own?” must be in it too.
3. Write down a process in a quiet year. How can a member bring a worry about the pastor? Who hears it? Who decides? Is there a second group to ask?
4. Keep the money and the preaching in different hands. One person should not preach, control the money, and also decide which worries are allowed.

And for the member: you may ask. “Where does that come from?” and “What is the passage around it about?” are not attacks. The people of Berea checked the words of the apostle Paul in the Scriptures every day. The Bible calls them “more noble” (Acts 17:11) for it.

If your question gets an answer, you have learned something. If your question gets a judgement on your character, you have also learned something.

Check it yourself

1. Read these in one sitting: Numbers 12, Numbers 16, 1 Samuel 24 and 26, Psalm 105, Acts 4:32 to 5:11, 3 John, and Matthew 23.
2. Read 3 John two times. It takes three minutes.
3. Read your own church’s rules. Do they answer the questions in “What should change?” If not, that tells you something about the structure. It says nothing about anyone’s character.